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| Marble Head Schooner AKA "Sir Edward Hawke" CAD Drawings | ||
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| Author | Post | ||
| Gary M |
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 Registered Member #4198 Joined: Tue May 07 2013, 10:50pmPosts: 904 | My next project is the American Schooner, Marble Head, build in 1767 and taken into the Royal Navy. A scan of the internet didn't readily reveal any models of this ship, so I thought it would make a good candidate for a fully detailed plan in POF. If there is interest, I can also do a POB plan for the same vessel. The Plans were pulled from The History of The American Sailing Navy, by Howard Chapelle, page 49. I really enjoy Colonial period ships and found the plan to be complete and fairly simple in its presentation. As I have done for my other plans (Peacock and Essex), I will use DeltaCAD for plan development. Importing Image to Computer In preparation for the lofting process, I had to cut the ship plan page out of the book so as to get it to lay flat on my scanner. I felt this was the right thing to do, given that you have to start with a strong foundation. I scanned the image using "best image". From there, I converted it into a jgeg file and enhanced the drawing, correcting for brightness, contrast and midtones. Here is the original image from the book, with two critical measurements - LBP 57' 9"; Beam Moulded 17' 4". Once imported into DeltaCAD, I will scale the plan to meet these measurements exactly. It will then be a matter of deriving a keel measurement as well as room and space calculation.  [ Edited Mon Jan 05 2015, 06:04pm ] | ||
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| Gene Bodnar |
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 Registered Member #126 Joined: Tue Jul 21 2009, 11:20amPosts: 1778 | Gary, Chapelle expands on this drawing in his "The American Fishing Schooners." The same drawing also appears in his "Search for Speed Under Sail." In the former volume, he says that the plans represent a class of Marble Head schooners, of which two were built in 1767 in New York for the Royal Navy. These two vessels were named "Sir Edward Hawke" and "Earl of Egmont." By 1825, Marblehead schooners, still in existence then, came to be called heeltappers because of their imagined likeness to a shoe in appearance. I look forward to watching you develop plans for a POF of this vessel, too. Gene | ||
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| daves |
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| Registered Member #105 Joined: Wed Jul 15 2009, 12:01pmPosts: 3560 | as a building reference may I suggest using the Reader Point wreck Texas A&M master thesis. this vessel was colonial built. Also I do think this is the plan Harold Hahn based his Hannah model on. I am not sure because it has been awhile since I dove into this period but I think this is one of those models you can't reproduce as a framed model because it had only a few main frames and the rest of the framing was just loose timber held in place by planking. If this is the case then you have to come up with a stylized form of framing and that angers the gods of "models that should not be built" because they are made up. Harold was almost stoned to death for using "stylized framing" and to this day is still being bashed over it. but hey! I am a supporter of do what you want there are no rules well except for those made by the modeling gods but for the most part who cares? | ||
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| daves |
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| Registered Member #105 Joined: Wed Jul 15 2009, 12:01pmPosts: 3560 | Gene reminded me Hahn did drawings for the sir Edward Hawke I have CAD tracings of them but they are all wrong. Watch out because this design has an extreme rake to the keel and Hahn drew his plans on a level keel so when the ship floated on the waterline everything slanted which is not correct. I have images showing admiralty models where the frames are at a 90 degree to the waterline and not the keel. When I brought this up I was severely reprimanded for disagreeing with the gods of model ship building and told to repent such blasphemy. I so totally showed no respect, insulting, contempt and lack of reverence for the great ones. hum like my dad said its not weather its right or wrong it is what I say it is. | ||
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| Gary M |
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| Registered Member #4198 Joined: Tue May 07 2013, 10:50pmPosts: 904 | Hmmm... I really appreciate and welcome the discussion on this. This all reminds me of an interesting old article that I read on the NRG website about models that should never be built - not sure if I agreed with it fully. While I don't want to be a "Revisionist" of history (like Hollywood), I do want to seek more information on this subject. I don't have a problem with a "stylized" model, but would want it to be grounded in fact. Perhaps we can call it a "Tribute" Model? I would also hate to be ostracized or stoned when I attended the next annual meeting... I will get the books and do more research on the subject. More to come. Thanks! G | ||
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| Gary M |
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| Registered Member #4198 Joined: Tue May 07 2013, 10:50pmPosts: 904 | I have ordered the books and have downloaded the thesis. And, I would consider it an honor to ever be considered in the same category as Harold or Portia for that matter with her "stylized" Essex. G | ||
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| Gene Bodnar |
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| Registered Member #126 Joined: Tue Jul 21 2009, 11:20amPosts: 1778 | Gary, Also see p. 11 forward in the MSB Journal December 2009 -- the article is entitled "Great Lakes" -- which discussed this drawing. Gene | ||
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| daves |
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| Registered Member #105 Joined: Wed Jul 15 2009, 12:01pmPosts: 3560 | this type of drafting has a lot of questions as to how it's done. Harold never offered his sir Edward Hawke plans because he knew something was very wrong in the drawings. Him and I sat at his drawing table and ponder this never to figure it out.  when you level the waterline notice the sides of the gun ports and top timbers are at a 90 degree (magenta lines). This indicates the framing is at a 90 to the waterline. BUT look what happens to the station lines like the midship it is slanted back what happens by the time your at the caprail from the blue line where the frame should be and the green line the space between the two lines distorts the body plan lines which in turn distorts the hull lines. Square one is to answer the question were ships drawn to a level waterline or keel line, were ship built on a level keel or level to the waterline? OR were the plans drawn to a level keel but the master shipwright corrected the frame shapes when he lifted them off the plans? This topic was discussed over at MSW but they removed all my examples and posts then sent me a warning to back off, I can search my archives for the examples but I am not sure if I saved them. [ Edited Wed Dec 31 2014, 03:40pm ] | ||
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| twintrow |
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| Registered Member #121 Joined: Tue Jul 21 2009, 04:41amPosts: 429 | what was msw objecting to?? seems like a tame enough subject. | ||
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| Gary M |
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| Registered Member #4198 Joined: Tue May 07 2013, 10:50pmPosts: 904 | Gene, I will read the MSB article tonight. I appreciate your researching it. Dave, Last night, I read the Reader Point Thesis - great free read for anyone interested in scooners or 18th Century shipbuilding. There are some dimensions that I can pull to enhance this project. Anything you can pull from your archive would be fantastic. I see your point clearly about the rake of the LWL. On the surface, it makes sense to draw the frames using the LWL as the level line, but as you point out, wont that change the shape of hull? Last night, I traced the drawings into CAD (I will upload later). Another issue are the station lines - while they look evenly spaced in the Chapelle drawing, many are not. I still need to do some calculations to see if I can find a common denominator in there. Or, are these really the "Mold Frames", and therefore just appear where there is a significant curve in the hull? I still need to better understand the topic of free floating frames. MY PLAN - Since this draft has started some really great discussion, I plan to continue with the project, but will try it in several different ways, creating multiple sets of plans to enhance the discussion. 1. Create a CAD drawing of the exact plan as Chapelle originally drew it. Done. (This is a safe route). 2. Draw a Mold Frame plan (still safe?) 3. Enhance the plan with period correct dimensions. (gods start to rumble...) 4. Draw a full set of frames, 90 degrees to keel (gods sit up and take notice) 5. Draw a full set of frames 90 degrees to the LWL. (lightning strikes...) 6. Compare and contrast all the options. Wouldn't this be a great topic at a National Convention? This would also make a great thesis paper for someone (it might have already been done) Thoughts on this plan of action? G [ Edited Wed Dec 31 2014, 05:25pm ] | ||
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